There is a lot of talk about the price of CD's and about value for money.
I've given this a lot of thought over the last few days.
Let's put this into perspective, when you buy a CD, the small bit of plastic, the disc itself is just the method in which the music is delivered to you, it's the envelope, it's the plate for the food if you like. When you buy a CD you are buying a copy of that music, you can keep it for all of your life and listen everyday, or you can listen once and put it on a shelf and forget it, that is your choice once you have bought it.
Something that you could get pleasure from daily for tens of years for a few £'s is not good value? The price of a CD compared to the price of a coffee, or the price of a cinema ticket is low, very low, and you have this thing, this special something for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, it has the potential to cheer you when you are sad, to comfort you when you are alone, to join you to others, really it's an amazing thing!
To say "music should be free" devalues it.
It says that you believe that the work, inspiration, imagination, skill, time and effort that has gone into composing and recording the piece is worthless.
Now put yourself in the shoes of the musician for a moment, how would you be inspired to write music in such a climate? How could you go to work each day if you were being told that your work was worthless?
Consider what it would be like to be told you were worthless, BUT your services were still required free of charge, then ask yourself how you would feel? Would you be hurt, angry, depressed?
Is this a fair and just way to treat the people we admire?
When those who regularly steal music get cornered, they tend to get angry and try to defend this behaviour, if this is you, please stop and consider the emotional impact you are having by the soul destroying actions you chose. Even if you wrongly deny or discount the financial blow and burden you create.
So many artists are independant these days, they are musicians and at the same time the plan tours (financially putting their necks on the line to do so), they run websites, they design t-shirts, they do the accounts, they parcel up cd's and ship them, they promote and advertise, they often do all the jobs that traditionally a record label would have done, and at the end of the day, the special thing that they do, the music, is taken, with no thought to consequence. When they have the audacity to speak up about it they are ridiculed and abused! HUH?
Can we add a little humanity to this issue and really consider the effect of taking and freely distributing something that you have no right to.
Wilcey. Prog Against Pirates.
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17 comments:
Exactly!
Thanks Wilcey.
One thing really bugs me and at times gets me pissed: A new album releases and 3-4 months further down the road they release a special edition of the same album. Of course as a fan i already bought the first album, and when a special editions is being released most times i buy it too. But in these cases i can understand the marketing behind it but as a fan at times i think "WTH please give me the option to buy a special version at release day."
Artists should be payed. Downloading is a crime in those cases an artist doesn't agree with a free download. My opinion towards an artist would be though to make the packaging special.
Last special buy we bought was: Persephone - Letters to a stranger. It costed almost 27 euro's but in a box-form it was worth every euro we payed for it.
Gert
ps. i know it's a bit off topic. Would understand if it doesn't get printed in this discussion. But maybe you guys could open a thread about 'what do people expect as a release'
Gert
i am a musician and i still think you are a fascist ass. you perpetuate the money=meaning fallacy of our age. you are the one who needs to have an awakening. why don't you have the courage to post these comments? because they prove how fraudulent and greedy you actually are.. it's only because you add money onto every record you sell for yourself. you are the one leeching off of the musicians who NEVER see as much money as you, petty-middle man.
unless you work for a cd corporation or have morality issues i don't know what you don't understand. recording an album is dirt cheap and that makes the record industries completely superfluous. not to mention the closed communication this entails framing the listeners to whatever the companies want you to listen. do you have ideology issues?
well: "the music should be free"...nnnnnaaaaa....the music IS free. As all arts. If isn't free is not art! For first, music (but you can imagine this for all arts)is not made for money, but for comunicate to someone or something...if is made for money you are Mtv.if you made this for money there isn't "work, inspiration, imagination, skill, time and effort"; there is only Britney Spears.
then, if is a good work you (i mean artist and seller)can earn from cd sales and live concerts.This is not worthless...for the first time, thanks to internet, people can CHOOSE what they wants...without any imposition.
"Consider what it would be like to be told you were worthless, BUT your services were still required free of charge..."...Still required?from whom? If you realize a great album for sure you'll be rewarded...if isn't that so noone requires your work (maybe i wrong but i think its called meritocracy...but be patients,i don't speek english very well)
"So many artists are independant these days, they are musicians and at the same time the plan tours (financially putting their necks on the line to do so), they run websites, they design t-shirts, they do the accounts..."
If artist is "indipendant" is NECESSARY to pubblish their work on blogs...because (as someone has yet wrote on blogs)the potential audience blogs could give is unparalleled with common promotional methods...and so on, all free of charge!and so on they could have a "direct line" with their audience for communicate live, new release, etc etc.
And don't forget that an album could be listen from million people...how could you tell that artist don't need blogger's help? You really think that over 1million people are going outside and are still screaming agains recordshop's doors just for buyin' the album? or more simple, are you really sure that 1million people are waiting on artist's home page? And please, be so smart to not answer that "there isn't a million people only because ,you dirty pirates,are d/ling the album"...you perfectly know that is untrue (and for sure your reader are not idiots)
I totally agree with you when you talk about about lossles format or eac+all artcover links....imho an 128kbps low bitrate is very good for listen and then (ONLY then) buy everything likes! And (always imho) i think you can generate the opposite of what you trying to do...Are you sure that people will buy your stuff after this campaign against bloggers and musiclovers?...
........really sure?
Have a nice days!
lets stop worrying about cd's, it is the albatross of the music industry. what i like the most about mindawn is the digital format - $6 for an album is awesome value. my complaint is that there are not more mindawns catering to those who collect the rare & unusual. further, the itunes pricing model makes for exhorbitant album prices v single tracks. a cd sells for low-end $10, itunes sells the 1 or 2 tracks that folks wants at $1 each, thus 80% of the price of the cd could be deemed worthless by the market. you need to bring cd prices further down to get in line w/ the singled tacked pricing or dispense w/ trhe cd format entirely then you have no inequity.
a shame that delerium could not gone digital ala mindawn - @ $6 a pop i would had feasted on that site.
Maybe out of context but who is performing Corpus, the first song in the player? Is it Frameshift? Wonderful song but when lookng for Frameshift (if it's them) I can't find any of the 3 songs I guess it's by them in the player on their album. Good idea with the player. Swedish Progress records has something similar. You can listen to some songs in full to find out if its anything for you. Most sites when putting out songs do it just for maybe 30 seconds and thats nothing when it comes to judging prog.
Regards
Jassa
Corpus is *not* a Frameshift track, I'm actually not sure it is. When we set up the player at first, we thought it would read the meta data tags in the mp3 files, but it isn't, so we have to make sure we name the files fully so you know what you are listening to. We're working on cleaning it up so it will be more obvious.
Dear Sir Blob,
Please let us know where we can record our albums at the rate of "dirt cheap"? Perhaps you could consider paying your favourite for recording sessions? After all it is "dirt cheap" so I guess you can afford it.
cpzs,
Are you trying to convince us that it is better to give away our music than to get paid for it?
Are you trying to convince us that we should be working and creating music for people to enjoy and that they should not have to give us anything in return?
Again I want to state.
We do not have anything against blogs. Ok? What we do not like is when they take our music with asking us for permission and then put it up for free distribution.
You say that we will be rewarded if we create a good album.
Please explain what you mean by that. Who will reward us? And how?
And why do you believe that blogs that give away entire albums are necessary for indipendent artists?
They are not. Indie artists need fans who gives something in return. And the best way is to buy their music. I'm sure that many find this remark somewhat "materialistic", but money is very needed for an artist. Do you know what a quality guitar cost? Drums? Synths? To hire a studio? Or to buy record equipment?
You know, it's quite difficult to buy these thing's without money.
A note from a blogger who says "You are great" will not be acceptet as payment at the music shop. Or as payment for food and clothes.
I mean, some people are reasoning like you do, that the artists work is more "honest" or "of a higher range" if they are doing it for free. This is stupid.
Of course money is not the main reason why any artist are spending time creating it. But, it is also true that we will have very little time to create if we must spend 8-10 hours per day at a day job.
And...as I said so many times now.
It is NOT ok that you enjoy others work without giving anything in return. I am fed up with guys like you trying to convince us to sacrifice our time and talent for your sake when you are not doing the same for us.
I find that your posting is of the usual "give me give me give me" type, even though you try to masque it with pretty words.
If you are a true music fan you should only "publish" music from artists who share your vision (whatever that now might be).
Hi Anonymous musician,
You should know that every single word you express in your posting is false. It is NOT how labels in general work.
If a label present to you a contract where we pay for your music, pay for promotion, work several hours per day to show people what fine music you create....would you still be hostile against the label?
I have no difficulties in understanding why labels are not interested in working with you. Your hostility would be to unpleasent to deal with. No matter how fantastic your music might be.
hi Hansi, sure i'll explain better my thoughts;
is simple, if you produce (or play)a very good album people for sure will buy artist's stuff.And obiviously if artists will go "on stage" more people could spend their money just for see the show.(here is the rewards!)
I agree with you when you talk about the money that artist could spend, but tell me just one reason to buy something that i don't know.
it's crazy tells again and again that artist don't needs bloggers works...as someone wrote you can't reach for free over 1 MILLION people.this is one of the bigger "promote campaign" that you could ever seen. Lots of people are lazy and often they wouldn't surf across web just to find a little band or labels who plays "xxx".
"It is NOT ok that you enjoy others work without giving anything in return."
I completly agree with you. but tell me if i DON'T enjoy the bands i've bought (because i don't have any chance to listen...and i don't talk about NEW bands, so don't answer me about new bands.). You refund the money? if that so why don't you tell me this straordinary idea?!? The truth is simple, you want earn for somethings that don't worth my money. If people have a chance to listen you don't have the "power"; for the first time people have the power to decide what they really wants.
"I find that your posting is of the usual "give me give me give me"".
i find that your posting is only "i want money i want money i want money"...you seems like Gollum...
then...if you are NOT against blog and you remove/delete only YOUR stuff (and again, i completly agree with this) why many blogs who post only stuff from the past (and i don't mean 1999 as "past")are "down"?
I posted same albums in a blog few week ago and all is deleted.and i talk about album from 40 y.o...(low 128 kbps and no artcover as most of other posts)
I have read most arguments about sharing here in this blog, but i don't find anything that prove you have the rights to delete somethinghs you don't own...so, for me you can stop to tell me about indipendet artists and poor labels, because most of the album i've posted are mainly focused on 70's...maybe artists you try to protect are dead.
You think that people really believe to your point of view?
Sorry hansi, we are "2 different world" with 2 opposite point of view. We will remain stopped on our blocks and no argumentation we could give to discussion could be decisive to change our point of view. You could think that i'm an idiot and i think the same too for you but we will still remain on our position. This "2 half" could be fused togheter (i hope that fused is the right word!?) with double convenience (for blogger's -they could continue to promote and talk with music they liked-, and for you -for earn-) but if you don't change your medieval thoughts the only things could happens is that you'll loose this war faster. blogger grow every days and i'm sure that deleting albums is generating the opposite behaviour you try to stop...many blog born every day, tons of bittorrents, emule ed2k links,private blogs...
the question is if what you doin' is really efficent...!
Well hansi have a nice days!
"for those about to prog...i salute you!!!"
cpzc
- I think that labels only get their stuff removed and not something they don't have a copyright on. Hansi and PK are the more vocal ones maybe that's why you think they removed it
- Do a legal blog like i do. It's great to work with labels and artists.
- Continue an illegal blog could mean on the long run someone isn't as nice and instead of just a friendly asking of removing stuff sends you a lawer on your tail.
Gert
Hello cpzs,
If you only have 70's stuff at your blog then I have not deleted it. We have no 70's releases in our catalogue. Nobody has said that they have the right to delete what they do not own. The one's arguing in that direction are the pirates who think they have the right to use others work as they please without owning it.
You say that it is crazy to tell you again and again that we do not need bloggers work.
I will tell you again and again that we do not need blogs that take our entire albums and give it away for free until you finally understand that simple fact.
We do co-operate with bloggers, but not those who steal our work and post the entire albums. Or even the entire catalogue.
When you are speaking about being rewarded you seem very naive. We could all wish that it work the way you describe. But it does not.
95% of the free downloaders do NOT buy the music if they can have it for free. Even if they like it.
Instead they save their money for thing's that can not be downloaded.
If reality was the way you and your pirat friends are trying so hard to make us believe, then no one would disagree with what you are doing. If it created sales everyone would say "Great!"
I have proposed several times that bloggers should ask the copyright owners (band or labels) about permission. Unfortunally most pirates seems to feel that this is something they should not have to do. I assume that they are either to lazy or that they simply have lost their sense for ownwership and think that they should have the rights to do whatever with OTHERS works. Did you notice that it is OTHERS works?
Your attitude is extremely disrespectful.
I have asked the same question over and over and never got a reply, so I will aks you again:
Why do you not ask for persmission?
Why?
You are free to create your own music and give it away. You are not free to do it with others music.
It is very simple. It is quite stunning that you don't get it.
A person who creates something owns it. Is that to "medievil" way of thinking for you?
...and again:
Why don't you ask for permission?
hi hansi...
no no no my friend...
i had only 70's (or 60's) stuff...(don't be afraid if i told you that "your" stuff are not quite similar to my taste...)and most of them was deleted. i don't belive you (but this is not so important...)
The fact you're claiming "simple" is not so simple because you don't bring any argumentation...
"will tell you again and again that we do not need blogs that take our entire albums and give it away for free until you finally understand that simple fact." this is not an argumentations or any proof. (but i'll answer you!)Again...why?
if you're not a great label for sure you can't promote adeguately your stuff (and this meaning no sales)and if you're bigger for sure you don't need blogger's work ..but, for sure, you're not a music lover...( F. Zappa says:"They (record companies) are only in it for money and money and nothing else then money"). You can't reach the same blogger's audience. But this is my point of view and i'm not interested to debating that issue...are your problems if you don't reach any decent audience, not mine.
"We do co-operate with bloggers, but not those who steal our work and post the entire albums. Or even the entire catalogue."
as i wrote before, 1or2 songs are not enough to decide to buy an album(s). But i'm with you when you talk about some blogger who post very high quality stuff with full artcovers.
"When you are speaking about being rewarded you seem very naive. We could all wish that it work the way you describe. But it does not."
no..Tons of article still claiming that d/l don't hurts record sales (the prof you shown are made by the same people who try to stop d/l...how can i trust their words and numbers when other people not affiliated with any record store claiming the opposite? and this people presumibly had any neutral point of view. if you produce/realize good stuff, simply the people will go outside and buy the same album/live. (psss...maybe if you don't sell enough is because your music don't worth its money, but i can't judge very well, i don't like "new" bands).
"95% of the free downloaders do NOT buy the music if they can have it for free. Even if they like it."
i don't see any reason for not buy something you like. If someone can't buy anything maybe is because don't have a penny...and you can't earn from people something that they don't have.
Please be carefull with numbers: as someone has wrote in near past, if one blog had over 1million surfer (and is very common) 5% means 50000 sales.
"I have proposed several times that bloggers should ask the copyright owners (band or labels) about permission.....I assume that they are either to lazy or that they simply...."
yes i'm lazy but for me is very difficult try to ask permission...sometimes artist are dead...i was planning to learn resurrection but god is always so busy....(and please don't talk to me about new bands...in that case i agree with your point of view)
"It is very simple. It is quite stunning that you don't get it."
i get it, simply don't agree with your thoughts.and i'm happy to have this (cordial) issues with you because your words are extremely efficent to bring people near my thoughts instead yours!
as usual...have a nice days!
...And what if sharing will be legalized?
http://www.betanews.com/article/
New_Italian_law_may_have_unintentionally_
legalized_MP3_sharing/1201903111
bye hansi!
p.s. gert, i discovered your blogs, but is very poor...how could you think to bring some knowledge to the people?
have nice days you too!
cp,
Please don't call me your friend.
You are obviously working on a hidden, hostile basis.
In almost every argument you come up with you are contradicting yourself.
For example you are quoting Frank Zappa's words about big (major) record companies when we are talking about idependent labels.
You say "be carefull with numbers" in the same sentence whetre you do it yourself.
You are also using the same invalidating, surpressive tactics as Nahavanda does (are you Nahavanda?) where you are trying to make artists feel that they are not good enough to sell much.
At the same time you are hailing artists which had poor sales.
These artists you say are "true artists".
Has it ever occured to you that there are "good" artists in both cathegories?
You are trying to turn your arguments around to suite you own purposes, and you do it over and over until you find yourself caught in a web of contradictions.
In your postings it is constantly shining through that your main intention is to make other's feel bad about themselves. To make them feel that they are not good enough.
In no way I would ever consider a supressive person like you as a friend.
I have absolutely nothing more to say to you.
"p.s. gert, i discovered your blogs, but is very poor...how could you think to bring some knowledge to the people?
have nice days you too!"
Yet people download the songs they find. You're saying that those people have a bad taste then too?
My my you're all knowing then aren't you.
Gert
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